93 Guglielmo Mazza – transcript

Interview Transcript

Provided by AI – add 3:15 mins for the finished episode

Catherine Weetman  00:00

Guglielmo, welcome to the circular economy podcast.

Guglielmo Mazza  00:04

Hi, Catherine. Thanks for having me.

Catherine Weetman  00:07

It’s a pleasure. And can we start by asking you to explain what Refuse does?

Guglielmo Mazza  00:12

Absolutely. So refuse is a social enterprise. And what we do is that we run recyclables collection points in Beirut, Lebanon, people are welcome to bring us their sorted ways. They can drop off 15 types of recyclables, plastics, metals, cooking oil, paper, whatever they might have in their house or their shop. And we trade these materials with local industries and factories in Lebanon and in the region in the middle eastern region. So that the value that we get can be can be shared back with those who contributed with their waste. So we have this cash flow cash scheme, that is an incentive for those communities in which recycling is not yet a common practice.

Catherine Weetman  01:00

And I gather, it’s not really recycling is not really common practice in most of Beirut, and that creates a lot of issues that those of us in communities where, you know, recycling is pretty standard, we probably can’t envisage. So could you explain some of those issues for the local people?

Guglielmo Mazza  01:21

Absolutely. So, in Beirut waste is everywhere. As soon as you land, you start noticing that landfills are overfilling. And there’s no proper waste management system in place. In some countries, there’s a management system that at least hides the problem. So gets the materials out of the way, and recyclables are collected or mixed waste, at least is collected. The collection system in Beirut is failing since a decade almost. And due to political issues that they back to the Civil War and previous crisis. But now the country is undergoing a new financial crisis and social, therefore social socio economic crisis. So the situation is getting worse. It’s getting worse in every neighbourhood. But the most vulnerable neighbourhoods are the ones that are most exposed with less collection frequency, with more health problems related to mismanagement of solid waste.

Catherine Weetman  02:33

So what kind of health problems you know, just unpack it a bit for those people who are struggling to imagine that, when we when we spoke before you, you know, it was when we first met, you were giving a presentation. So there was some brilliant photographs from your local area that really brought it to life. So try and paint a picture in in words instead.

Guglielmo Mazza  03:00

Absolutely. So with easily piles up, first issues, the smell, it’s everywhere, it’s very strong. And particularly in summer, it really, really gets stuck in your nose with this very acidic. Note that it’s very annoying. Waste brings in several issues. The first one is animals. So we have insects, breathing, cockroaches, flies, mosquitoes, whatever it might be related to that but also rats and cats and dogs. And those animals that will eat the predate predators of these animals, since these animals are busy eating waste instead of completing the chain and waste also contributes to floods in the municipality. So it clogs, public drainage systems, it clogs, roads and gullies whatever. So it highly influences the risk of floods in the area. It can pollute soils, water sources, and so on in agricultural agricultural regions, but also in municipal sites. So there’s a lot of aspects one of the key issues in Beirut is also social tension. So, the different communities producing waste and accusing each other of producing waste of not managing properly. Waste and the different presence of migrant communities, refugee communities host communities with different roles in the waste management value chain. So the presence of waste speakers in formal collectors, the presence of municipal actors, the detentions of citizens and businesses. So it has a very important social component, too.

Catherine Weetman  04:53

Yeah, can you imagine how that you know the conversations go because we will find it easier, don’t we to blame some target organisation or group of people or whatever and insist it’s it’s all their fault, whatever the issue is, whether it’s politics or whatever. And some organisations have tried to help. But unless it’s unless there’s a workable system, it doesn’t necessarily make things better, does it?

Guglielmo Mazza  05:28

Absolutely. So there have been several relief valves, several humanitarian projects or international cooperation initiatives to support, particularly since the beginning of the Syrian crisis with inflow of a huge number of refugees in the country. But most projects have a very time limited spans. So a very time limited span. So there has been the construction of broad infrastructures throughout the country with with funding from large donors and agencies. But this never solved the issue. Because of the complexity of the problem that couldn’t be solved. For instance, the fact that different religious backgrounds do not allow mixing waste. So the different casters of the country wanted to have their own waste management scheme, without the economy of scale of a waste management system. So Lebanon is a very tiny country, and from Italy, and the size of Lebanon is the size of one of the smallest regions in in Italy, though, they have 20 canisters that want to have their own waste management scheme. So there is no economies of scale. And we supported international cooperation actors supported this scheme to at least minimise the issues related waste management. But these plans that we built, never reached full capacity and were never able to survive the granting.

Catherine Weetman  07:12

Yeah, because it just couldn’t be cost effective. Yeah. So when did you come to set refus? Up? How long ago was that?

Guglielmo Mazza  07:24

So I started hanging out in Lebanon in 2019. And it was for my master’s thesis on solid waste management in protected emergencies. And I stayed in a refugee camp for four months, trying to understand how NGOs, how communities were responding to the waste issue. And it was from a very different perspective, I was one of the beneficiaries that were in a tent, living with the community, in the middle of nowhere, not speaking one word or Arabic. So it was a very tough learning experience. But it really showed me how wrong sometimes our answers to the problems we see are and how needed, how important it was to think of a solution that would incentivize people so not only be imposed as a solution to a problem that we all know, we all know that sorting and recycling waste is king. We all know that we can generate value out of that we all know that. There are very simple ways to sort the recycle bins. But we never designed such system in a context where there’s no space in the house where there’s floods regularly in your tent when there’s no capacity to spread sorting stations in every small refugee camp that is located in the middle of nowhere in agricultural fields. So the whole point was, how do we create a very small, tiny, simple infrastructure that convinces people to bring recyclables to drop them in recycling stations instead of collecting them at home? Because there’s no space? There’s no chance? And how do we convince how do we convince How do we engage those who have other priorities, which are much more important than waste? So health issues or legal problems or stressful jobs or Yeah, lack of jobs and, and so on, to do something that is not a priority for them, not in a place that is the priority for them. So we came up with this model of cash flow trash as a way to reduce the key pressure that these people had, which was financial distress, and also to help them to hope. I mean, we didn’t have any confirmation on this, but to hope that we could use this money to empower them and build solutions. For settlements and refugee camps through the value of waste, the process was long. We started in 2018. With some research we built. We did assessments everywhere we could on the market value of recyclables on the visibility of establishing permanent or non permanent infrastructures on the logistics behind the scheme. And finally, in 2021, we decided to start but not from a refugee camp. And we decided to start in a very, very dense neighbourhood in Beirut instead, which kind of was a refugee camp, it’s an area where there’s a very vibrant mix of communities. But it’s a stable neighbourhood, dense, messy, extremely colourful and nice.

Catherine Weetman  10:58

So that was 2021. And how many waste streams did you start off by offering recycling facilities for?

Guglielmo Mazza  11:08

So we started the collection of 10 types of sorted materials we started since the beginning with a very detailed process. So

Catherine Weetman  11:18

what can we actually what kinds of things did that include?

Guglielmo Mazza  11:22

I mean, one is, has multiple phases like plastics, if we don’t have one plastic bin, we have seven. So we have transparent PET bottles, we have coloured PET bottles or oily PET bottles, we have transparent LDP, which is the nylon bags, the plastic bags that we they use, and then coloured bags, then we have HDPE, the high density plastics. So we have a very detailed breakdown of the plastics then we started to collect in paper and cardboard, and different types of metals. When we started developing research to differentiating the types of metals, and we have to stop the collection of glass, because the market value and the logistics behind glass collection, were too tough for us. Hmm,

Catherine Weetman  12:14

that’s interesting. I mean, I guess many of us would think that that would be the easy one. But then, when it’s small scale, and you think about logistics, and breakages and damage and all that kind of stuff, then

Guglielmo Mazza  12:26

and yeah. And risk for the world. Yeah,

Catherine Weetman  12:28

yeah, exactly. So you got going with that? And how did it? How did it take off? You know, how did it resonate with people? Were people on board straightaway? Or was it a bit of resistance? How did it go?

Guglielmo Mazza  12:43

So we started very small, we rented this bakery that was abandoned, and we transformed it into a drop off station for recyclables, which is a shop and people could get in. And before we started any marketing campaign, we had people knock in the door with bags of recyclables. So word of mouth was really affected in the community. What we saw is that not everyone is happy of doing their fork. Waste remains a big issue for some people, it’s not pleasant to collect recyclables at home. And it’s not pleasant to be seen, transporting and dropping recyclables is perceived as something that only people who are in very dire financial distress would do. Not everyone would be doing it for money. And then we started seeing more commitment of people with different interests. Not everyone is coming for the cash reward. We have people coming because they do have an understanding of environmental problems. Maybe not the full definition of climate change, maybe yes, maybe a perception of what is the impact of local ecosystems, not on global schemes, but it really different purposes. And the other side that we never thought of, is the willingness to improve the community. So a more social push. So the capability of understanding that the system is collapsing that there is no proper government and response in a very harsh financial crisis. The government is not capable in improving their collection schemes. So people are seeing the worsening of the situation and they’re fearing something that already happened, which was the waste crisis of 2015. So they want to commit and they want to do the effort, not for environmental purposes, but for leading in a better neighbourhood

Catherine Weetman  14:48

to make things better for the community. So did things kind of grow steadily once you got going on? Or did it suddenly take off? How how manageable was it?

Guglielmo Mazza  15:01

We had a lot of bottlenecks, let’s say. So we started small and we had more and more people coming, we didn’t have equipment for processing within an have a compactor for the recyclables. So we got overfilled, after a short, a very short period, we started having issues with some insects, and then we had stuff issues in hiring is never easy. And training, the stuff is never easy. We have electricity problems, the country is not full time connected to the grid. So sometimes we had electricity just for one or two hours per day, and we could not properly operate and manage the earnings we were collecting. So we were growing, let’s say steadily, and we had this word of mouth was expanding and bringing us more people. But we also had several, several logistic issues that we had to adjust. And we had to tweak the system a bit, several times to make sure it could work.

Catherine Weetman  16:08

So even learn learning fast through all those, what’s his never ending process, Facebook that says, you know, fail fast and, and adapt or whatever they say. So kind of, you know, realise as fast as possible when something’s not working, and evolve in the in the you’ve had to do lots of that. So

Guglielmo Mazza  16:33

we had a, we had a great advisor that told us if you want to start failed first, so just do it. Just go ahead, just try it, and you will see what the problems are and you will adjust. So. Yeah, that was it.

Catherine Weetman  16:49

So where are you up to? Now? What’s the current situation? Is it still one recycling centre, or have you expanded to more.

Guglielmo Mazza  16:58

So we expanded to a second collection point in a very similar community not far from the one we were operating in. And so we are have an increasing population served. And we have a much, much bigger storage space where we will experiment some new technical solutions for waste management, maybe not only compressing also shredding recyclables to increase the market value and increase the chances to sell these materials to industries in need for row secondary row products. So we will expand and we have a third collection point. Under Construction, let’s say we are where we finalise the agreements to let it start, and we’re going to expand. So this was the goal for the year having three collection points up and running. And understanding also the complexity of managing more than one space for recyclables in different communities where you need different marketing messages. So you need to speak in different languages, we need to speak in Arabic, Armenian, in English, sometimes sound communications in other minor languages, depending on the communities we serve. So once we will be able to do that we aim to scale up fast, and hopefully have 15-20 collection points next.

Catherine Weetman  18:26

So the more you explain about it, the more complex it sounds. So now you have 15 types of waste and two collection points and another one as work in progress, you know, in implementation. Are you how how does the cash for trash element of it work? Do people just turn up and you pay them there? And then or is there a sort of electronic wallet system? How does that work?

Guglielmo Mazza  18:55

The way we do have an electronic wallet system, we have a software through which we check all the drop offs. We measure everything we received divided by fraction. So paper plastics, divided by type, we weight everything, as soon as people drop off, and we asked people to drop them off sorted. So we have a community that switched from zero sorting to knowing 15 types of materials, which is great. And we measure everything on their account and we give cash whenever they reach a certain boundary. Right now it’s 50,000 Lebanese pounds. The market value changes fast because of the inflation but it sums up to say $1 and a half $2. Right.

Catherine Weetman  19:44

Okay. And in terms of selling the materials to industry, how Gao how’s that progressed?

Guglielmo Mazza  19:55

So we at the beginning, we started with one buyer, it was a Palestinian NGO that operates in in some areas of Beirut. And that was already in touch with several buyers and industry. So we will selling everything through them. Now we are moving to different buyers. So we scouted over 30 Different industries for different materials, and we are expanding the market. So we have a person working almost full time on this on the market assessment to negotiate prices and deals with buyers. The main complexity is that there there’s a very strong fractal fluctuation of prices that depends on different factors, the distance, the availability of fuel for transportation, the cost of labour, and the inflation rate in Lebanon, which is daily daily changing, so we have to adjust regularly to that, but also the international fluctuation of prices. So the influence of COVID and the influence of the lack of materials relate to worldwide crisis happening and we all know, yeah, the situation abroad.

Catherine Weetman  21:11

Exactly. And putting pressure on fuel costs and so on. And people compete for fuel from different sources. So yeah, I can it just it’s just incredibly complicated, isn’t it? And particularly because you still have to pretty much pretty small scale, though, with sounds like lots of potential to scale out. And what’s what’s changed? Do you think, in how how people are reacting to this, since you started, are people starting to feel more positive about it, instead of seeing it as something that they don’t really want to be doing? How’s that changed?

Guglielmo Mazza  21:55

We have very different perceptions from I would say, some people do feel the very strong commitment, and they are proud of the effort they do. And they keep pushing and reaching other people to to let us expand to let us collect more and let us have a stronger impact on the community. And we also have those who were doing it purely for cash, were saying that the effort is not properly rewarded stress, it’s a struggle. It’s a complex, very complex scheme. And it’s not easy to drop the materials at our place, it’s not as easy to come within our opening times, and we cannot operate 24 hours a day. So it’s not as easy as dropping everything into a bit. So we have to improve the service as much as we can and maybe diversify the service as much as we can to make sure that we can integrate new, minor solutions to help those who feel that it’s a struggle. So how do we make the drop of process easier? How do we make the sorting process at home easier? How do we make it easier to come by and bring the materials to us know is knowing that things are heavy and things are frequently produced? How do we support them, we don’t have answers yet. We’re just like collecting the impressions. And we will try to develop as many solutions as we will be able to,

Catherine Weetman  23:28

Because even some of the high tech solutions that are starting to be rolled out in Europe. So things like reverse vending machines to pay people to take back batteries, and even to collect pre you reusable packaging, like the loop system and so on. Those are obviously going to be expensive. And of course, if you can’t guarantee 20 For our power supplies, then that doesn’t work. either. You could have a fantastic bit of technology. But if there’s no power, people can’t use it. So I can imagine just how how challenging it must be.

Guglielmo Mazza  24:10

And I think that this is one of the sides that one of the problems that you have, for sure power, we don’t have electricity. So we need the battery system when it weighs but also this equipment is extremely costly. And maintenance is extremely high. Any machine that has to deal with different inputs, which are often dirty, greasy, oily, and have moving mechanical parts will face will need to face high maintenance. Yeah. And if we import the machine from, let’s say, from Europe, then we would need to import spare parts from Europe. So we have a very high dependency on this for this technological solution. So we don’t think it’s the case plus the the learning curve As for these machines is not so easy. And the materials they collect are very limited. So you can have a machine for batteries, you can have a machine for bottles, but you won’t have a machine that is capable of doing what the human eye the human is doing, which is collecting 15 types of recyclables in the same spot. And

Catherine Weetman  25:20

just think getting getting good at being able to even even know before you leave home. Exactly how these are going to be separated. So you’ve organised and there’s,

Guglielmo Mazza  25:32

yeah, there’s a final issue, which is the human touch. With the human touch, people learn much faster. So while we saw it, we can give tips, we can share some feedback, we can help them learn more about the materials, we can suggest how to prevent producing these materials, or how to switch from non recyclable products that they delivered to us like tetrapack. It’s not such an easy recyclable product, it’s extremely hard to process it. And even in Europe, we struggle to manage that properly. So in Lebanon, for us, it’s very significant issue. So how do we avoid purchasing that and buying something else? A vending machine or reverse vending machine? We’ll never be able to do that. And the human touch is what makes people learn really fast when they come to our

Catherine Weetman  26:25

Yeah, I think I think that’s really interesting. And particularly, to suddenly then think about the products that are difficult to recycle here. You know, in the in the US, here in Europe, and America. Even things like industrially, compostable packaging, mostly can’t be dealt with in the UK, there are a few industrially industrial composting plants around the country. But not many. And so people look at it and think maybe it can go on their own compost bin if they happen to have one. Otherwise, it just ends up going in recycling to contaminate the recycling, or it ends up in in the waste bin. So yeah, I think it’s it’s one of these, you know, another reason why we need global extended producer responsibility, it shouldn’t be right that manufacturers can put products with packaging, that can’t be recycled into a country and just take no responsibility.

Guglielmo Mazza  27:28

Absolutely. And in a country where there is a huge financial crisis packaging comes in a completely different way, it’s very common to purchase a very small products. So when you buy nuts, you cannot afford to buy a kilo, you buy maybe 50 grammes, which means that input and output if you do the proportions, you have a much higher production of waste. Plus high end communities can afford to purchase products with a certain type of packaging. Imagine, imagine aluminium cans, pretty comfortable to use pretty easy to recycle quite a smooth process. But they’re extremely costly. So if you need to sell aluminium cans, you can only do it in, in a certain community in another community, we’ll go with tetrapack for the same product or plastic bottles. So the type of packaging really changes depending on the community.

Catherine Weetman  28:23

And interesting and just much more complicated than we would imagine from outside the system. So you’ll mo over the course of, you know, starting your research project back in 2019. And getting to where you are now, what surprised you along the way?

Guglielmo Mazza  28:44

Or what didn’t? What surprised us along the way. So one of the things that really positively surprised me was the fact that we have a vision that the team is also pushing forward. So we built a team, engaging people who don’t always have experience in the sector that we work in. But that rapidly got engaged in this very long term vision that we have for a more sustainable and more circular community in which we operate. So this was a very positive surprise. We had another surprise that we didn’t expect is that we’re not the only ones in in Beirut in Lebanon, there’s a lot of initiatives that are spreading first to promote solutions and you can call it competition is being started within Enterprise or you can call it finally having partners helping us advocate for the same solution. So that’s rate that surprised us, definitely, we are surrounded by actors who want to push fast for a better Waste Management System, a better waste prevention system. And in general, more structured solutions towards sustainable communities.

Catherine Weetman  30:20

That sounds encouraging. And I’m just thinking, you know, when we were talking about the extended producer responsibility, and so on, nationally, a couple of years ago, and I think it was in the Philippines, decided they were going to do Net Zero packaging. So the way that worked was, they worked out how much packaging of different types they were putting into the marketplace. And they committed to pay for the collection. Of all of that to get it properly dealt with. But it wasn’t, they weren’t necessarily only collecting their own packaging, they would equate it collecting the equivalent volume by type of packaging. And so the more brands that took that approach, the more funding there would be for, you know, a full, fully operational recycling system. So maybe lobbying nationally and some of the others to say, you know, you’ve done it here. The next place you should be doing it is Beirut.

Guglielmo Mazza  31:27

We are very conflicted about this. So we accept it or not, should Nestle or all the other brands that are doing the same exact thing, there’s a lot of large scale polluters who are doing the same, or proposing the same solution. Should they keep producing this packaging? Or should they change the system instant? Like those same aluminium cans? Couldn’t be? Couldn’t they be bottles that are simply washed and refilled? Should we keep continuing with the same system that keeps put in in reusable packaging that is actually designed to last much longer than the US that we do with that so that the US will that we need it for? Or should we simply say that we compensate our impact. So we actually have this problem when thinking about fundraising. So we need funds to expand, we need to fund we need funds to sustain the cost, we definitely need financial resources. Are we accepting funds from those companies who are claiming that they will collect as much as they produced? For us, it’s still unknown. So it’s great that they want to collect but we think they shouldn’t produce it.

Catherine Weetman  32:49

That’s interesting beginning. So in the UK, the packaging, waste regulations, there’s a levy, and that levy is different according to the type of packaging, so the easier it is to recycle something like paper and card, they have a lower tax than the ones that are really difficult. So if you get those numbers, right, you can encourage both switching to less difficult packaging, in terms of recycling. And you can also start to level the playing field in terms in favour of reusable packaging.

Guglielmo Mazza  33:28

Absolutely. So the political decisions behind are extremely important, because if not, if it’s all left to the company’s decision to promote impact solutions, because of visibility because of impact investors, because of the good. We will never get anywhere. We need these kinds of regulations. And we need them to be brave and straightened, particularly for those who have the capabilities of changing and who have the funds to change and who built huge marketing campaigns to let us think that we need such products when we actually don’t. So definitely extended producer responsibility is needed. And we really need to make sure that the large companies will be the ones promoting research and investing in their own to find solutions. Taxation is one of the systems, but we should also be braver and sometimes Ben

Catherine Weetman  34:26

Yeah. Simple. Yeah. Really. Yeah. Particularly when there’s a you know, a workable reusable system. Because you know, there are plenty now starting up. So, again, looking back on on the three years so far, what would be your number one lesson learned?

Guglielmo Mazza  34:46

Lessons Learned build a team. We didn’t build a product. We build a team. We built a team. So whatever happens now, we have a team of let’s say visionary people who did decided to dedicate a lot of their time and a lot of their energy and knowledge to the problem. We fell in love with the problem we really want to fix solid waste management issues in dense, vulnerable communities refuses an answer. It’s one of the answers. But we need this theme to keep evolving refuse. And we don’t want refuse to be the final solution. So the ‘cash for trash’ test team is amazing for first step. But we need to evolve to work on prevention and new solutions. So really make sure that you have the team that is passionate that keeps learning from different sources. Because with a team, you can develop new solutions very fast. Now we have a company now we have a system, we have a structure. He has a new idea, and we’re ready to work on it.

Catherine Weetman  35:50

Sounds amazing. That sounds amazing.

Guglielmo Mazza  35:53

What’s the best lesson learned?

Catherine Weetman  35:55

Great, thank you. Thank you. So look, I mean, you know, you’re passionate about the circular economy beyond just packaging and other difficult to recycle items. When you’re talking to people about the circular economy, is there a favourite example that you’d like to share?

Guglielmo Mazza  36:19

A favourite example. I should think of that. So I think that my my goal, my personal goal is trying to make people realise how wrong the system of ownership we have, and how important it is to propose sharing solutions. So this capitalistic scheme that led to a very non circular system brought us to think that if we own things, it’s better, it’s easier, cheaper, it’s faster, it’s more comfortable. But there are so many communities that don’t have access to what we’re used to, or so many communities in which access is restricted by I don’t know, logistics or procurement problems. So we should switch to sharing solutions instead. So one of the best examples that I would bring to the table is a normal library. We don’t need to have books on our shelves forever. It’s very nice to have the book you read, but you really don’t need it. So why should we have them there all the time. And if we can do it with books, why can’t we do it with everything else we all. So there are so many great examples of library libraries of things. And they can be the solutions to a lot of our storage cost and sharing problems. So I really think that this should spread everywhere, from high end communities to very low end communities. I can say two examples. There’s one in in Bologna, in Italy, it’s called Leila. And it’s purely a library of things you can rent, things to go hiking, you can rent things to cook, you can rent, the electrical equipment, equipment that you will not need full time like a drill, we use it maybe once per year, twice. I mean, I’m a bit of a handy person, so I use it often. But I really don’t need it every single day, so I could borrow it. And that’s a great place where you can go and rent out whatever you might need. And another very nice solutions is called solution. It’s called Tulu. And what they do is that they create sort of shelves with a very easy app that allows you to unlock these shelves and rent some things like a very cool, very powerful vacuum. Vacuum Cleaner, what’s the name, that’s it. So a great vacuum cleaner. And you don’t need that full time. And maybe you have your own and it’s a bit old. And sometimes you need to do something bigger, you need to clean better, and you can rent it out for one hour, not more than that. And they do what they do is that they put the systems into large buildings or into places where people concentrate so that there can be the food processing machine that you would always wanted to have and you would use once per year. So it’s really great that they found this very simple, very minimal scheme to rent up things inside your building so extremely accessible at affordable costs. What I really love is that we if we learn what shearing means, it means we also focus on keeping taking very good care of the things we own and only purchasing those things that will have a very long life. So those who will put pots in the shelves will not put cheap pots that will need to be replaced. Every now and then they will purchase Much better quality equipment and parts and drills and so on. So we also push for the production of more of better quality items and repairable items and washable items and so on. So we also stopped the issue of producing cheap so that everyone can access.

Catherine Weetman  40:20

Exactly, yeah, cheap stuff that is really a false economy. You know, you think it, I think it’s cheap. And then you find out it’s only lasted, you know, a quarter of the time of the slightly more expensive. Yeah, thank you. So, Gil, Mo, how can people find out more about refuse and get in touch.

Guglielmo Mazza  40:41

So you can check our Instagram page refused Lebanon, you can check our website, www dot refuse dot ICO and you can reach out on Facebook, on LinkedIn, it’s very eay. If you just look for Refuse and that ‘Lebanon’ next to it, Refuse should come up. So happy to have your impressions through our channels.

Catherine Weetman  41:04

Thank you. Yes. So I’ll share all those links in the show notes. And I really look forward to seeing what happens next. It sounds like you’ve got an amazing team with lots of energy and now an engaged community and some of the just the complexity of the challenges that you’re trying to solve across different cultural groups and the different types of waste and yeah, it’s just mind blowing, but it sounds like you’ve made an amazing amount of progress so far. So I’m sure you’ll go from strength to strength over the next few years. Thank you very much.

Guglielmo Mazza  41:39

Thanks a lot. Thanks to you.