89 Simon Hombersley – transcript

Interview Transcript

Provided by AI – add 3:43 mins for the finished episode

Catherine Weetman  00:03

Simon, welcome to the circular economy podcast.

Simon Hombersley  00:06

Thank you very much, it’s good to be here.

Catherine Weetman  00:08

And we’re not too far apart today because you’re in, in or near Cambridge, I believe. Yes. Perhaps we could start by asking you to unpack the Xampla mission for us.

Simon Hombersley  00:21

We are a mission led business, we’re a B Corp actually where the UK is first university spin out to become a B Corp. And we have a very simple mission. That’s to reduce plastic pollution. And specifically within that we’re focused on the most polluting plastics. So these are single use plastics, and microplastics. These are the kinds of plastics that always leak into the environment, they can’t be captured typically within a systems approach within recycling, so forth. So that’s, that’s our focus the most polluting plastics. And that’s,

Catherine Weetman  00:53

that’s a really evocative phrase. And and I think, a few episodes ago, we heard from Maria Westerbos of the Plastic Soup Foundation, and she’s really exercised about micro plastics, particularly in cosmetics and things where we perhaps wouldn’t expect them not microbeads, but micro plastics. So

Simon Hombersley  01:13

Plastic Soup, doing a lot of really good work on the on the health impacts of plastics is an increasing development in those fields of the understanding of not just these plastics are bad for the planet and other creatures. They’re bad for us. They really are. And the evidence is now there for that.

Catherine Weetman  01:29

Yeah, I think it’s really interesting that the science is now starting to focus in on that. And I know, somebody wants told me years ago that in pharmaceuticals, drugs are generally withdrawn after about 10 years, because that’s, that’s when the research on the on the long term side effects becomes clear. So and I think just this week, somebody posted something about the dangers of reusing children’s toys. Because I guess, 10 or 15 years ago, in plastic toys, and so on, there were types of plastic or additives, BPA and all that kind of stuff that’s now been outlawed. So yes, lots lots of things to think about when we’re deciding to use plastics. So can you tell us a bit more about the kinds of products that Xampla has, and how it’s avoiding fossil fuel based chemicals?

Simon Hombersley  02:30

The kind of products that we’re working on as sort of launch products are two examples I’ll talk about one is a single use plastic packaging application, and the other is a micro plastic replacement, or Microcapsule. Actually, in that particular case, so. So we have developed? Well, let me start with the problem. So convenience, consumers love convenience. And brands love giving consumers what they want. So this is one of the reasons that we have so much single use plastic in our lives is because actually consumers want it and they value it. And it brings hygiene and portion control. And in some cases, you can argue that actually, these plastic packaging solutions are actually good for the planet in terms of reducing food waste, and so forth. So this is why brands use single use plastic and flexible films and sachets. But the problem is, those are the most polluting plastics, you can’t economically recycle flexible film. And furthermore, brands today are beginning to respond to consumer pressure, they’re beginning to understand that consumers, particularly younger consumers are making choices about what products they buy, based on the plastic content. And that’s a serious driver in all of this sector, which is really important. So for our launch product, what we’ve developed is a clickable, edible replacement for plastics, which we are using to wrap a stock cube. So the stock cube comes to the consumer, the consumer, instead of unwrapping it and throwing away either tin foil or a piece of plastic, they simply they can rinse it under the tap, they throw the whole thing including its wrapper into the pot, give it a stir, and they eat their own packaging. Now that’s a product we’ve launched with Gousto, the home recipe kit company here in the UK. And we’re now rolling that out. And that’s a really interesting example because it’s actually what we’re trying to do as a company is is excite and innovate and work with brands to give new formats and new exciting consumer experiences. And obviously, the result of that is if we rolled out all across gastos range alone, that will be about 17 tonnes of plastic replaced per year. So significant volumes of these materials can be replaced in an exciting and innovative way. And the other area that we’re working on is microplastics in particular, and this is much more an area where there’s regulatory drivers so a lot of consumers I’m not particularly aware of what plastics are in their formulations and personal care products and home care products. So we’re working on tiny micro capsules of our materials, which cause no harm at all to the planet in terms of pollution, but delivered the same. The cause no harm at all to the planet in terms of pollution, but deliver the same product viability in the same product that our brands want from us.

Catherine Weetman  05:28

So that sounds like two really potentially game changing product developments. And just to come back to the single use plastic example, the stock cube example, I guess, when I’m listening to you describe that because we’re so used to the idea of those coming in petrochemical based plastic packaging. The thought of dissolving it kind of makes makes me inwardly shudder. So can you tell us about, you know, the basis of of the materials that you’re using, so that we feel reassured that you know, the these are things that are a good to dissolve in our foods, not not something that’s you know, because people are aware that biodegradable plastic packaging, doesn’t mean it’s made from by a biomaterial. So bio degradable and kind of dissolvable doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for you

Simon Hombersley  06:19

Absolutely. And this kind of greenwashing that’s been quite prevalent in our space is a real problem for not just us, but the whole next generation of these natural materials. So our products are made from food grade materials, the edible ones, we’re also working with other areas, but but for the food materials and materials that we would design to be eaten by a consumer, they are simply food they are based on in that case is p protein. So we take p protein, the sort of protein, you could buy it, and every every health food store around the world, and we engineer that with no chemical modification or change at all. And the result is a food, it’s just the same as boiling an egg or making jelly, it’s a very similar sort of process, and the materials that come out of the end of only 100%, plant protein. So that’s why they are food and edible. But I understand your point. And actually, when we did the launch, and we did a lot of consumer testing for that launch, consumers loved it, there was great feedback on that product. But a number of people did feedback and say, it looks a bit too much like plastic, we need to change the language of these sorts of materials and products. And we need to change the look and feel of them. So that people are very clear that that what is edible, and is a food essentially material versus what is a traditional oil base plastic.

Catherine Weetman  07:39

Yeah, that’s really interesting. I think changing the language could be essential, couldn’t it to kind of a stop the greenwashing and the confusion, and also to help people request these things and, you know, go on to social media for the brand and say, Why aren’t you using this material? You know, not not necessarily a brand name, but a descriptor for something? Yeah,

Simon Hombersley  08:05

absolutely. And I think that harnessing the power of consumers is absolutely critical to all of this. And it’s, you know, it’s a key to the point that the people who care about plastic are consumers, consumers don’t buy plastic, you know, apart from clingfilm, or a few examples, all my dog poo bags, I very rarely buy plastic, but we use plastic the whole time. It’s the brands, who have got the power here and who decide what products are put in front of the consumers. But the brands are incredibly sensitive to consumer demand. So the people you’ve got the power here are actually consumers. But it’s unfair to expect a consumer to have a PhD in material science and be able to filter all the greenwashing this space and understand exactly what is a credible, or what isn’t. So simplicity of language, honesty, transparency, these are really important things that we all need to work together, as I say, particularly our class of materials is natural polymer materials which are made from things that are found in nature, and cause no harm at the end of life, we can work together to communicate effectively why we’re not bio based or biodegradable in that way, or buy this or buy or that or, or based on any of the previous generation of language. But it’s a big challenge. It’s a big challenge for all of us.

Catherine Weetman  09:19

It is a big challenge, because even even natural, and I might have told you this story when we talked before, but I was helping a personal care startup. And they were working with a contract manufacturer, and we’d given them a list of criteria of you know, we want organic where possible, and you know, no plastics and the packaging and this, that and the other. And so it was kind of, you know, organic, natural ingredients. And I had to do the research because everything has to go through legislation in terms of what what descriptors you can apply to what the product does. And so I was going through the ingredients list on one of the EU websites, and two or three things said well, there is a natural version of this But it’s very expensive and quite hard to get hold off. So mostly, this would be synthetic, whatever, whatever. So I wrote to them to say, you know, can you explain what the source is and where it’s from? And sure enough, they turned out to be synthetic petrochemical based things. And so we then went back and said, Well, what about our overriding message of we wanted natural and organic? Well, they said, well, it is natural, you know, those fossils were once living things.

Simon Hombersley  10:30

Yes, and I think that fortunately, there is a generation of consumers who is much more savvy and much more motivated to do that digging. But as I say, I think it’s unfair. To put the pressure on the consumers to make their choices, it really is quite difficult. We need to help. We’re – not just Xampla, but all companies in the sector and everybody involved in campaigning and so forth, need to help bring clarity to this space, because obviously, there is a rearguard action being fought by the fossil fuel industry to protect what is an increasing share of their revenue actually, over the next few years as their fuel element of the oil goes down. But in percentage terms, the plastics is actually going to increase it’s increasingly important business for them. And we must remember that production of plastic is expected to increase over the next 20 to 30 years not decrease. So this is a growing problem, or a growing opportunity for the oil industry to continue business as usual. So there is a there is quite a lot going on here. But we can all work together. And what is a relatively young field, still plant based natural products and materials are relatively young space. So we can work together to help everybody understand actually, if you’re a sustainability consultant, or if your packaging designer or a brand manager, don’t go and look at all of these first generation materials and have to find out that actually, they’re chemically modified, or they degrade into forever chemicals which get into our bloodstream and cause trouble. Just choose something that looks like a plant sounds like a plant and you know, when it goes into the soil is going to cause no harm. It’s, it is as simple as that. But there’s quite a lot of thicket to cut through to get to that simple story.

Catherine Weetman  12:04

Yeah, you’re right. And not least the power of of the vested interests in Yes. petrochemical producers, as you say, who are all banking on plastic and the recycling of plastic? Because of course, that requires even more chemicals and an energy provided by fossil fuels. So yeah, they’re really keen on it. So just to come back to the microcapsules. Can you tell us a bit, you know, kind of bring that to life a bit? Where would we see those? And, you know, what are they made from?

Simon Hombersley  12:33

Well, in our shirts, right now, there are tiny micro capsules containing fragrance, which are typically made of melamine formaldehyde. And by tiny, I mean, 10,15, 20 microns across, you can’t see them, and you can’t feel them, but they’re in there. Now, they’re an incredibly sophisticated piece of technology. And they’re designed to release the fragrance that the laundry company wants in your clothes to keep your clothes smelling fresh. And at the end of the day, those little capsules, which have given out their fragrance, they get washed out of your clothes, when you put them back in the washing machine. And a whole new set of them are put back in with the fabric conditioner, or the laundry detergent that you’ve put in now that usefully The European Union is banning that class of products they recognise that is simply as straightforward microplastic pollutant, it’s a very straightforward case. So those are being banned. What we’ve developed is a replacement for that material, which can be engineered into micro plastic into a micro capsule, and microparticle, which delivers the same sort of performance. And those capsules are not just in your homecare products, they’re in shampoos, personal care products, a whole series of products that we use every day, and often wash off down the shower without even thinking about it contain microplastics. And it is one of those sad things because I talk about this sometimes with consumer groups, and that it’s the first time they’ve heard this. And they’re shocked, because they don’t think they’re doing anything wrong. They’re making choices in their lives all the time, where they think they’re making the right choice. And this is just something that brands need to communicate and solve, essentially, so consumers can carry on enjoying the products.

Catherine Weetman  14:15

Yeah, it is shocking, isn’t it to find out what’s in things. And yeah, I’m a kind of, let’s look back at what we used to do before all this stuff was invented. And I’ve discovered that white malt vinegar which you can buy in big flagons from our local local independent supermarket is a perfectly good replacement for fabric conditioner.

Simon Hombersley  14:38

It is interesting and it’s also been it gives me a little bit of hope because although the plastic problem is huge, and it can seem quite insurmountable. This is only one lifetime. You know, we’ve reaped enormous harm on our planet from this material, but it is only a lifetime and we can change and we can change also without losing all the joy and the benefit that comes from this convenience that the plastic provides. So this isn’t some sort of hair shirt, let’s ban everything approach. Let’s just change. We’ve learned we understand now the impact of these materials, we need to move on to a next generation and simply change. And that’s possible that’s feasible. And companies like Xampla, we’re obviously not the only ones are the ones who are delivering those solutions. Yeah,

Catherine Weetman  15:19

I think it is really exciting. And I was talking to a future podcast guest, Michael Smith from Regeneration.vc,  and they’re investing in these kinds of things as well. And really see biological, biologically inspired solutions using natural materials to avoid chemicals, and, you know, finishing coatings and all that kind of stuff. Yeah,

Simon Hombersley  15:49

we need investors like Michael, who’s very well informed in this area and knows what the right the right decisions are to make. Because actually, in many cases, we’re seeing investors continue to put money into last generation solutions. So they’re actually making a problem worse, rather than solving it. Whereas Regeneration.vc is a very focused fund with a very specific mission and a very good sort of advisory board who, who can inform and educate so yeah, we need VCs like that.

Catherine Weetman    16:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I liked your description of last generation solutions. There’s some really evocative terminology that can just get people thinking, you know, hang on, am I now, you know, I hadn’t even thought about that. And once once their radars on for what’s get what they’re doing wrong now and what the alternatives could be, then, again, the next transformation can be sparked, can’t it? Yeah. So can we go back to how Xampla started? Where did the idea come from? And, you know, what’s, what’s the science and biomimicry, biomimicry inspiration behind all of this?

Simon Hombersley  16:55

It’s an interesting story. So our academic founder at the University of Cambridge, I’ve got two other founders of the business, Thomas Knowles. He is one of the world’s leading protein biophysicist. He’s working absolutely at the cutting edge of understanding of proteins and how they behave. And about 15 years ago at the university asked a very simple question. He said, I wonder how a spider makes silk. And you’d have thought and such a familiar material, somebody would ask that before. And then Thomas asked him for the first time, and he spent a long time trying to understand how this spider did it. And silk is only made up of proteins, animal proteins, obviously, but nonetheless, proteins. And what the spider is doing when it makes silk is it’s it’s untangling the strings of proteins at a Supra molecular levels and not not at a sub molecular with a supramolecular. And rearranging those proteins into different forms, and then spinning a web or whatever the function is. So once Thomas has been probably quite a long time working out how that process worked, he then thought, Okay, well, I can learn from the spider, we can actually use the same approach that the spider is using to make silk to engineer common, cheap, sustainable plant proteins, one of the widest most available commodities on the planet, and turn those into useful materials. Because spider silk is five times stronger than steel. It’s an incredibly high performance material. But it’s not a chemical. It’s not synthetic, it’s merely a natural product. And that’s what his Thomas’s breakthrough at the university was. And that’s the foundation of the science for Xampla. So we’ve developed that into a scalable process, using actually only three ingredients water, plant, protein, and vinegar. And we turn our plant protein isolate the standard, you know, organic, natural, completely basic product into materials that perform like plastic using that process that Thomas developed at the University or discovered at the university based on the spider.

Catherine Weetman  18:53

That’s an amazing story. And it’s kind of mind blowing, isn’t it? What the, what the spider is able to do?

Simon Hombersley  19:01

And I think I think biomimicry, you know, there’s a lot of development in this whole Circular Economy space, where people have just taken a moment say, Okay, well, if nature does this, what can we learn from the anything? Why on earth? Didn’t we start at that point? Why on earth did we feel we needed to create an entire new chemical industry to create these products? Why didn’t we just work out what, what’s what nature does, because if nature’s doing it, then presumably it’s kind of okay to the planet because he’s been doing it for a lot longer than human beings have been around. And that’s what Thomas discovered. And as I say, from a commercial point of view, what excites me about this is, it’s a fundamental piece of research Xampla is a deep tech business with a patent portfolio and all that, but it’s come at exactly the right time. This is a rare case where a fundamental scientist has developed something that solves a problem that is front of everybody’s minds right now. It’s a fantastic, fantastic example.

Catherine Weetman  19:55

Yeah, it’s just so exciting, isn’t it, the potential for or resolving a whole load of, of really problematic issues and products and changing the way people are thinking both in both in terms of waking people up in terms of what’s going wrong now and what they don’t even know about, like the microcapsules in personal health care products, and also opening their eyes to what’s possible and getting people inspired and encouraged to start choosing better, better ways of doing things or start inventing better ways of doing things. So what plans do you have for the for the next generation of plant based plastics? Have you got any particular problems that you that you’re about to solve or exercise to solve?

Simon Hombersley  20:47

There’s, there’s a few things which stand out for us. And we are a business, we’re in the business of making money and solving problems and so forth. But there is we’re a B Corp, we’re mission led, there are certain things that that we we do that that make us tick. One of those is seed coatings. So 90% of the corn crop in North America goes into the soil with a tiny little plastic capsule around it. And that gives flow ability, and they often colour it so the birds don’t eat the seeds, and it improves yield, and they put actives on and so forth. So it’s good for farmers, it improves yield. But that is literally us turning our soils into plastic. We’ve been doing it for about 2530 years, and we can observe the composition of the soil changing. And that’s one of those applications, you just think, how on earth did anybody think that was a good idea. So what Xampla is doing, we’re working with a leading UK company in that sector, to manufacture our materials intercede coatings. And obviously, we can provide the same function, but our materials are only made from plant protein. So when they go into the soil, they get digested, you know, anything, anything on the planet needs protein, so in plant protein, pretty inoffensive to everybody. So they simply digest that, and there’s no harm. Furthermore, actually, the microbes actually benefit the soil and the creatures and so forth. So, so it’s a perfect sort of use case. So there are a few of those. And then there are some of the much more bulk volume applications in plastics that we recognise. So sort of takeaway cartons and all of the applications for flexible films, there are 855 billion single us sachets produced on this planet every year, it’s a number that’s quite hard to get your head around. And in fact, we don’t tend to see it so much on this side of the world. Because typically, we’ve got decent sort of systems for capturing waste, and so forth. Go to a beach in Indonesia. That’s where you see feet deep, single use sachets on the beach, all branded or branded by these major companies. And that’s the problem they’re seeking to solve. And that’s a solution that we’ve got for them.

Catherine Weetman  22:57

Yeah, there’s a big campaign isn’t there? I can’t remember if it’s Sian Sutherlands plastic, can’t remember what the plastic thing is, or

Simon Hombersley  23:09

Plastic Planet

Catherine Weetman  23:10

or Changing Markets. But there’s a ‘Sack the sachet’ campaign to try and get these brands to move away from them. But yeah, I could, I could go off on another rant about why those are being used and how that how they’re kind of starting to draw the next group of consumers into the, the convenience and benefits of the brand.

Simon Hombersley  23:35

It’s, it’s something that we’re sort of conscious of, is we are working with the world as it is. Now, you know, if you’re, it’s, it’s one of those things, and it’s above my paygrade to get too involved in this but but you know, a one rupee sachet on a street stall in Delhi, is how a lot of people get their personal care products. And I’m not gonna sit here and say That’s wrong. That’s, that’s not the right judgement. But what I can say is we’ve got a way of helping you continue that business model without the pollutant. And that’s the importance of the solution we’re focusing on but yes, it’s a very challenging area, all of these Well, as you know, Catherine, from all of your your podcasts, every circular question, there’s multiple angles to it. There’s always consequences. There’s always things we need to think in the round in these sorts of areas.

Catherine Weetman  24:24

But you’re right, though, it does allow, it takes away the environmentally harmful and human health harmful effects of those kinds of things. And gives the big brands a way to buy into a better solution without worrying about the impact on their bottom line. You know, it’s this kind of what I see brands doing is is stuff around New Generation materials and more recyclability, and so on. What they steer away from is anything that might slow down the rate of production and and consumption. And so to use a phrase that Jeremy lent us the other the other day on something I was listening to, it’s about trying to change the system from the inside. And this is this is a really great way to do it isn’t it is providing something that they can build into their existing business model without them having to try and turn the supertanker around and do something completely different, that their competitors might not follow.

Simon Hombersley  25:31

Absolutely, and we’re a B Corp. So we balance profit and purpose. And I see no conflict at all between the two in what we’re doing quite far from it, I think there is competitive advantage and product differentiation, that can come for brands. By choosing materials that are not plastic, I actually think that replacing plastic is a commercial opportunity for brands, not a cost or a burden or a problem they have to solve. And that’s what our job is, is to help brands recognise that actually in certain product categories. They can premium eyes, some quite dull products by making them plastic free. And we’re seeing this with challenger brands all around the world direct to consumer models, innovative startups that have got a relationship directly with consumers, which is an ethical relationship. The major brands are very threatened by that and want a piece of that action will they need volume materials and they need credible solutions, but those solutions are available. Dishwasher tablets is my favourite example of all of this dishwasher tablets are really boring. Nobody gets excited about dishwasher tablets. Now the soluble plastic wrap around a typical dishwasher tablets made PVOH ah, that is a pollutant there is debate and argument and fighting around that. But essentially, it’s under consultation, we understand that the EU at the moment for a restriction it is a pollutant, it’s made from oil. Now, in my view, the first major brand that puts product on shelf, offering that dishwasher tab in a wrapper, but without oil without plastic involved, it’s going to stamp out, they’re going to sell massive quantities of that product because it will be differentiated in what is quite a sleepy product category. So all of this is an opportunity for businesses. It’s not, there are challenges. There are all sorts of difficulties as we make this transition over an extended period. But there’s a lot of opportunity here commercially for not just us, but for the brands we’re working with.

Catherine Weetman  27:25

Yeah, and I think it’s good to kind of talk about the size of the opportunity. And I guess that brings up the question of, you know, thinking thinking of the bigger, the bigger picture and the bigger system. And I know that some people are worried that a move towards more bio based materials, whether that’s in textiles, or packaging or whatever, could put too much pressure on the on the planet because we what we don’t want to do is convert more forests and wild areas into agricultural land. So are there any key principles that that you’re using in terms of how you’re selecting the feedstocks and whether you’re able to do something that works regenerative alongside food rather than using land that could be grown to be used to grow food?

Simon Hombersley  28:20

Absolutely, and it’s one of our sort of longer term sort of focus areas is how do we ensure that we never get into a battle for resource essentially, because because the planet has a limited quantity of resource? I think if we step back, I would say that this transition, which is a 20 to 30 year transition away from fossil fuels, this question will affect everybody in the sector, absolutely everybody and we all need to be thinking in the round about how we address it. So from Xampla’s point of view, our feedstocks at the moment for our edible products have standard food grade, they have to be that their food products. So that’s that’s just the way it is. As we move on to things like dishwasher tablets, and these non food applications, we’re already making our materials from agricultural coproduct from waste from existing stream. So potato protein is a byproduct of industrial starch production. For instance, we’ve worked with rapeseed cake fibre being hauled These are products that typically a lower value for farmers but have a value and go to animal feed, typically, but sometimes these products are just ploughed straight back into the soil or go to anaerobic digestion, which is doesn’t seem a sensible route for something that has a function and have a value. So in the longer term after that we’re looking at actually alternative crops. And something that has always struck me as interesting is, is one of the problems we have in agriculture from a sustainability point of view as a whole is monoculture. You know, most of the food on this planet is five crops broadly. And within those those strains and variants have been optimised for or food production at the cost of requiring all sorts of fertilisers and irrigation, and so forth. There will be any number of variants and varieties of those crops and other crops that have been discarded or are existing elsewhere and used only in small areas, which could be, you know, frost resistant drought hardly require no extra irrigation and so forth, but nonetheless produce enough protein or enough valuable material that they could be used for a non food source such as ours. And the flip side of that question, obviously, is a transition away from meat over the next 20 to 30 years, that is a major major impact on land use, but also farmer incomes. So we see ourselves as part of the solution for farmers making that Trish transition to ensure and increase in offtake for some of the agricultural product or lower value products that they’re they’re working on at the moment, and actually provide them with a base level of income. And that’s not just at the sort of global crops. But one of the other principles we have in this area is local circularity. There is a major change coming as we move away from oil, we’re going to stop thinking of drilling in Saudi shipping it to somewhere to be cracked, turned into nurdles in North America to come back to Britain to be turned into plastic film to wrap tomatoes in Spain to come back to Britain and then to be recycled back in China. That’s a crazy 20th century model. We want to grow crops locally processed them at a local level with local incomes and local jobs, use them in local supply chains and in an ideal world, plough them back into the same soils they came from in the first place. And that’s when you start thinking about the full sort of regenerative effect of what we’re doing. So a lot of our crops that we’re most interested in are lagoons for various reasons. But lagoons are nitrogenated crops are often grown as cover crop anyway, in northern hemisphere. If farmers can get some sort of offtake. For those products, they are more likely to grow them. And that may reduce their dependence on chemical fertilisers and so forth. So there is a vastly complicated interaction between all the elements of this piece of the puzzle. And what a company like Xampla is doing by creating a new material and a new source of offtake for these farmers, is we’re changing the game slightly. And we need to work through all of this. And honestly, Catherine, I don’t have all the answers at this stage. But we are aware, I think of some of the conversations that we need to have, as we grow to scale and to minimise the negative impacts and maximise the positive.

Catherine Weetman  32:33

Yeah, and there are so many positive aspects that could come from that aren’t there around more income streams for farmers, localising the whole production cycle? We’re starting to realise, aren’t we? Just how, you know, what a bad idea it can be to end up being dependent for key resources on countries that, you know, you’re not going to be in complete agreement with? Absolutely.

Simon Hombersley  33:26

But it does, it does place challenges on the sort of procurement sort of processes of these major customers who are used to buy, you know, vast quantities of product in a standardised form. And so far. So there are challenges in this transition as well. But I completely agree, I think we’re very aware of security of supply issues in a number of areas. And that local sustainability sort of cases is increasingly understood. I don’t think we’re there yet for everybody. But I think increasingly, it’s understood that if you think local think small think think what’s within, you know, 20 miles of your plant, and what’s the feedstock there? And where are the customers there? That’s a much more sustainable way of approaching these issues.

Catherine Weetman  34:05

Some really exciting developments, I think, to come on that, on that, that theme, Walter Stahel in his book calls, it calls it intelligent decentralisation. So kind of distributed solutions, but accelerated by the use of new technology or new communications and so on. So yeah, lots lots of game changing opportunities there as well. So Simon, thinking back on your journey so far in in, in a circular economy startup, what would if you were talking to somebody else thinking of going circular or starting something up? What would be the the top tip that you’d share from your lessons learned?

Simon Hombersley  34:49

I think my top tip is, is pick your battles. I think we all want to change the world, but we do it together. And we do it by focusing on the things that we know how to do. So in Xampla’s case we’re a business, we are not trying to persuade any of our customers of an ethical or moral case for doing something we’re giving them solutions that they want. It is as simple as that. And when I think about impact, and I think about how we make that change in the world, we we do it by selling product, we do it by by shifting the procurement process, we do it by being practical and solving our customers problems. And I think that all startups in particular, it should be very, very, very product customer focused on the outset, even if their personal motivation and the company’s mission is to change the world. We get there Brick by Brick by being practical.

Catherine Weetman  35:42

Yeah, that’s really great advice. Thank you. And I’m sure it’s something that lots of existing businesses could be thinking more clearly about. You know, companies have sort of lost sight of what customers really want, just going back to the plastic packaging. Consumers don’t see any value in that. And Jo Chidley, from ReRe, was was very clear on that. And they don’t really want stuff in plastic packaging. But the brands have kind of got hooked on the convenience of it. And think that the convenience has to mean plastic. But as you’re showing and as solutions like ReRe, and Loop and Algramo with reusable packaging are showing people are quite happy to try something different if it’s better for them and better for the planet. And Simon, is somebody that you’d recommend as a future guest for the programme?

Simon Hombersley  36:36

Well, I would recommend Sian Sutherland from plastic planet, who I think is the most articulate person in terms of explaining not just what the impact and the problems are in this space, but what the potential solutions are in this space. So I would recommend Sian for your show.

Catherine Weetman  36:52

Thank you. Yes, I follow Sian on LinkedIn. So I’m sure I’ll easily be able to make make contact with her. And if you’re able to wave a magic wand overnight and change just one thing to make a better world, what would that be?

Simon Hombersley  37:08

This might give me a little bit of trouble here. But the fossil fuel industry every year is subsidised to the tune of something like 700 billion a year. Now I can tell you give this next generation of plant based materials 700 billion a year. And we’d be at scale and solving a lot more problems overnight. So I think what’s going on at the moment is actually it’s the way the world but governments who are elected generally by us are subsidising an industry that most of us would rather, is transitioning into a different place. So we are all funding business as usual. So the magic wand I would waive is that actually, we all started. Even if we were not yet paying the real price of the products that we use in this space, at least we’re not paying the subsidised price of the products we were using in this space.

Simon Hombersley  37:59

Great stuff. Brilliant idea, I could definitely start a petition on on. And lastly, Simon, how can people find out more and get in touch with you and the team at Xampla?

Simon Hombersley  38:11

Well, we love talking to customers in particular to get in touch with us. Xampla.com is the website and we’re on Twitter and LinkedIn so you can get in touch with us very easily in any of those areas.

Catherine Weetman  38:22

Thank you. And we’ll put all those links in the show notes. And thanks for a really fascinating discussion. And I’m kind of feeling much more optimistic than I was at the start of the day when we just heard about the new cabinet positions in the UK Government. So by the time this goes out, that’ll be that’ll be old news, whether there will still be in place. Let’s see. But yeah, I now feel much more optimistic about our future. And that’s a future generation. So thank you very much, Simon.

Simon Hombersley  38:53

Thank you for having me. Thanks.